What would cause sudden toe-out?

ArtBasement

ArtBasement

Erwin Timmers
On my last drive in the fall, I noticed tire squealing in turns; seemingly something off with alignment. It got slowly worse as the day went on. Finally getting around to checking the problem, and I see front toe is about 1" out. I had set it 1/4" in. The tie rod nuts are tight. I installed a new steering rack (Vicks) 2 years ago. Is that one now gone? Something internal broken or stretched? Any ideas? I can set toe back, but same thing might happen again
 
Wheel bearing could have let go.

I would go through all of the front end parts to verify all bushings are ok. Push and pull on the rack components, tie rods and ball joints.

That is a lot of toe out.
 
Toe outa whack by "one inch" is not gonna be a wheel bearing.

~Plastic bushing famous for de-seating itself or cracked busted.
~The ball joints at the end of the rack has come loose... or failed, This is a dangerous situation, if the ball joint pulls out, there will be more than loss of steering, the exxe will "self steer" in unpredictable directions.

~Also check the ball joints at the upright
and

~check the steering rack mounts


Check this,
Bernice
 
I have had the plastic bushing in the rack go bad, like many of us, and other than clunking sound I noticed no alignment issues. The front geometry suggests toe out would be caused by the tie rods somehow becoming closer to each other or one of the wheel hubs has pulled further out from it's stock location. My thoughts are to forget steering rack issues and focus on the wheel hub assembly or the tie rods and bushings.

Is the steering wheel still centered?
 
carl said:
I have had the plastic bushing in the rack go bad, like many of us, and other than clunking sound I noticed no alignment issues. The front geometry suggests toe out would be caused by the tie rods somehow becoming closer to each other or one of the wheel hubs has pulled further out from it's stock location. My thoughts are to forget steering rack issues and focus on the wheel hub assembly or the tie rods and bushings.

Is the steering wheel still centered?
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Thanks for everyone's input and suggestions. I think I'll need to check everything again. So far no obvious culprit. I found it weird to see toe-out, so the steering and tie rods got shorter? And that it happened gradually: at the beginning of drive nothing, then a few squeals, and at the end of the drive every turn was loud.
 
ArtBasement said:
I found it weird to see toe-out, so the steering and tie rods got shorter?
Click to expand...
More likely some other part of the suspension has come loose, allowing the upright to shift outwards - same effect as shortening the tie rods. Whatever the problem is, you have to find it before you even think about driving it again - unexplained changes in suspension geometry are the machine's way of telling you that it wants to kill you.
 
EricH said:
More likely some other part of the suspension has come loose, allowing the upright to shift outwards - same effect as shortening the tie rods. Whatever the problem is, you have to find it before you even think about driving it again - unexplained changes in suspension geometry are the machine's way of telling you that it wants to kill you.
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I didn't follow: "upright to shift outward". You mean the steering knuckle? Or bearing carrier, or whatever it's called...
 
ArtBasement said:
I didn't follow: "upright to shift outward". You mean the steering knuckle? Or bearing carrier, or whatever it's called...
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Yep, that's it - the chunk of cast iron that is located by the strut, tie rod, two lower suspension arms.
 
ArtBasement said:
I didn't follow: "upright to shift outward". You mean the steering knuckle? Or bearing carrier, or whatever it's called...
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Yes the steering knuckle. Look at the two bolts that hold it to the strut. The bolt and bushing that holds the lower arm to the body. The reaction rod that goes from the front of the car to the lower arm. The ball joint in the lower arm to the steering knuckle. The tie rod to the steering knuckle.

The tie rod would be unlikely to be able to move significantly at the rack.

I would put my hands on every part on both sides. The right being toed out may be compensation for what is happening on the left side.
 
kmead said:
Yes the steering knuckle. Look at the two bolts that hold it to the strut. The bolt and bushing that holds the lower arm to the body. The reaction rod that goes from the front of the car to the lower arm. The ball joint in the lower arm to the steering knuckle. The tie rod to the steering knuckle.

The tie rod would be unlikely to be able to move significantly at the rack.

I would put my hands on every part on both sides. The right being toed out may be compensation for what is happening on the left side.
Click to expand...
And add to that list the rubber bushings at the inboard end of the lower arms.
 
kmead said:
The bolt and bushing that holds the lower arm to the body. The reaction rod that goes from the front of the car to the lower arm. The ball joint in the lower arm to the steering knuckle. The tie rod to the steering knuckle.
Click to expand...
SO I found that my relatively new control arm bushings, both sides, are totally worn. They were installed 15K miles ago. Yellow ones from Vicks. It seems soon for these to wear as they did. They must have both really let go on that last drive in the fall. I think I'll just go with rubber to replace these.
 

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ArtBasement said:
SO I found that my relatively new control arm bushings, both sides, are totally worn. They were installed 15K miles ago. Yellow ones from Vicks. It seems soon for these to wear as they did. They must have both really let go on that last drive in the fall. I think I'll just go with rubber to replace these.
Click to expand...
Out of stock at Midwest, Autoricambi, Vicks. Rockauto has no clue. Where else can I try?
 
ArtBasement said:
Out of stock at Midwest, Autoricambi, Vicks. Rockauto has no clue. Where else can I try?
Click to expand...
I believe both Obert and Eurosport UK have stock of the OE type rubber bushings.

I too have stock of the proper rubber OE type bushings...but only as part of my re-fresh kits...

Fiat X1/9 and Lancia Scorpion suspension re-fresh kits available again !

Note this may be considered a commercial post. Hi Folks. Good news. Yup...as the title suggests....my famous suspension re-fresh kits are available again. What with world-wide supply chain issues...it has been a struggle to accumulate all the bits needed for these kits. Some of the...
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This reminds me of the crap spider A-arm bushings and driveshaft guibos that infected the market decades ago. They would last about a month. At least you found the source of the problem, that's 85% of the problem solved.
 
Steve Thomas said:
what an amazing surprise :) So many "high performance" poly bushes are rubbish. Wear out really fast rubbish or so damm'd hard they bind everything up rubbish. So, yeah, go rubber as FIAT intended.
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Poly bushings.... claimed to be "high performance"...
There are numerous variations to polyurethane, some excellent, some worst than awful. Part of the choice must be made based on specific application, environmental conditions and more.

This is one of those, "knowing the word alone means knowing zilch about the item"...

Saab story, Saab used a large rubber/polymer bushing at the end of the lower front A-arm, this bushing is subject to plenty stress, environmental conditions and more. The oem SAAB parts lasted decades... When they wore out, tried one of the aftermarket poly bushings... lasted about 3 months before the poly bushing literally dissolved. With much difficulty, sourced some new old stock oem SAAB bushings as replacements. Problem never repeated to this day.

Alternative to oem bushings would be be to convert the bushings to aerospace spec spherical bearings. This required specific machine work, sourcing the bearings (no low cost) and living with the knowledge these spherical bearings greatly improve suspension arm locating and precision of feel, they are subject to dirt and all those trade off factors.. Not ideal at all for a road car.


Bernice
 
Question: Is there a reason that the rubber ones are 1-piece and the poly ones are 2-piece? Installation is so much easier for a 2-piece. Bad idea to cut rubber ones down middle to install easier?

I'm also tempted to buy whole control arms, but for the price... A lot of extra dough for some steel and a ball joint. I only paid $50 each for MOOG replacements on my daily van.
 
ArtBasement said:
Question: Is there a reason that the rubber ones are 1-piece and the poly ones are 2-piece? Installation is so much easier for a 2-piece. Bad idea to cut rubber ones down middle to install easier?

I'm also tempted to buy whole control arms, but for the price... A lot of extra dough for some steel and a ball joint. I only paid $50 each for MOOG replacements on my daily van.
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I did a suspension refurb last year. If your work area includes a decent sized bench vice and you have a nice assortment of sockets to use as drivers, then it can be done with reasonable effort. If not, then best to buy the control arm.

I just barely got away with using the vise you see in my write-up, one of these days I should upgrade :D

Installing Front Control Arm Rubber Bushings Using Common Items

Here's a technique for installing front control arm rubber bushings that uses one repurposed plumbing connector and tools, equipment and supplies that most home mechanics will already have. 1. Start with your control arm removed from the car. This one has been bead blasted. 2. Since the...
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