What would cause sudden toe-out?

[rx1900]

Question: Is there a reason that the rubber ones are 1-piece and the poly ones are 2-piece? Installation is so much easier for a 2-piece.

Yes..there is a good reason the OE type rubber bushings are one piece. You have to understand just how the bushing functions in this application.

In essence....the OE rubber bushing becomes bonded - by its tight press fit - into both the control arm and that steel sleeve. And motion...as the arm pivots up and down...is accommodated only by twisting of the rubber bit. There is NO motion between the rubber and the steel sleeve, or between the rubber bushing and the control arm. ONLY the internal flexing of the rubber !! Thus nothing to wear out....and no slop...

On the other hand....on the multi-piece poly bushings for this application...movement of the control arm is accommodated instead by the poly bits rotating against the steel sleeve and also the control arm. This of course...leads to wear and slop in short order....as you found out...And not only that....the control arm not only rotates as it goes up and down...it also moves in an arc front to back as the suspension moves, due to the geometry of the radius rod. That of course just also destroys a poly bushing in short order. The OE type rubber bushing accommodates the twisting of course by its design.

Many, many times here on this forum...we have seen early failure of those poly bushings. I'm surprised they lasted this long for you. Likely...they were worn out long ago and you just didn't notice..

In short...they are a really bad idea. Certainly not an upgrade. Don't believe me ?...just do a search for "poly bushings" on the search function on this forum. Many respected members here - like Steve H and Steve C - all agree with me. Ever notice Matt doesn't sell them - gee I wonder why ? Yeah....a certain member here continues to insist they are the greatest thing since sliced bread...believe who you may.....

The OE spec rubber one piece bushings are quite firm...and highly durable. Proper control and compliance. The Fiat engineers knew what they were doing...

Bad idea to cut rubber ones down middle to install easier?

Yeah....a really bad idea....

I'm also tempted to buy whole control arms, but for the price... A lot of extra dough for some steel and a ball joint. I only paid $50 each for MOOG replacements on my daily van.

No reason at all to buy new control arms....well as long as the ball joint portion has no play. Install a new inner bushing for few bucks. And yank the boot off the ball joint part...clean out all the old hardened grease...work in some new premium grease...install a new boot...and good as new !!

 

[kmead]

Moog stuff has gone way way down on quality over the last few years.

Question: Is there a reason that the rubber ones are 1-piece and the poly ones are 2-piece? Installation is so much easier for a 2-piece. Bad idea to cut rubber ones down middle to install easier?

I'm also tempted to buy whole control arms, but for the price... A lot of extra dough for some steel and a ball joint. I only paid $50 each for MOOG replacements on my daily van.

 

[ArtBasement]

Moog stuff has gone way way down on quality over the last few years.

Could well be; I don't know what brand name to trust any more. They've seemingly all been bought out by larger companies for the name and quick turn-around profit. I bought Optima batteries that didn't last long. Mann, Meyle, Delphi, all have been disappointing. Those MOOG control arms were purchased in 2010, and have lasted me through today. I saw TRW bushings on ebay; that was a name I trust(ed). I bought them and we'll see how and if I can get them in. Just a small vice to work with.

 

[ArtBasement]

No reason at all to buy new control arms....well as long as the ball joint portion has no play. Install a new inner bushing for few bucks. And yank the boot off the ball joint part...clean out all the old hardened grease...work in some new premium grease...install a new boot...and good as new !!

Ball joints seems good. I'm going to give it a try.

 

[545days]

And add to that list the rubber bushings at the inboard end of the lower arms.

We had the same problem last year at MSR Houston last year. The driver wasn't black flagged, but definitely wasn't in control either. The bushings looked like this:

 

[Bobkat]

SO I found that my relatively new control arm bushings, both sides, are totally worn. They were installed 15K miles ago. Yellow ones from Vicks. It seems soon for these to wear as they did. They must have both really let go on that last drive in the fall. I think I'll just go with rubber to replace these.

I had the same thing happen with the Yellows. Not 500 miles. I did my own 3D printed versions that seem to be working. Now my rear yellows are failing also so will do the same and print some. I have some nice blue TPU now to replace them all.

 

[Bobkat]

what an amazing surprise So many "high performance" poly bushes are rubbish. Wear out really fast rubbish or so damm'd hard they bind everything up rubbish. So, yeah, go rubber as FIAT intended.

I think the issue with the yellows is the are just way to soft. Mine deformed and wore out in 500 miles. Printed some out of much harder TPU and seem to be fine.

 

[DanielForest]

I think the issue with the yellows is the are just way to soft. Mine deformed and wore out in 500 miles. Printed some out of much harder TPU and seem to be fine.

Would you do a batch for forum owners? I would take 2 pairs if the price isn't too extreme.

 

[ArtBasement]

I think the issue with the yellows is the are just way to soft. Mine deformed and wore out in 500 miles. Printed some out of much harder TPU and seem to be fine.

Yes, I remember they were very soft when I installed them. I thought that would be good thing after reading they go through flex, and hard ones might rip the mounts off the body

 

[Russe11]

It’s an epidemic. I replaced mine in the summer of 2020. Driver’s side is shot.

 

[Rupunzell]

Yes, I remember they were very soft when I installed them. I thought that would be good thing after reading they go through flex, and hard ones might rip the mounts off the body

"Rip the mount out of the car/chassis."... Don't think so, those inner brackets are strong enough to lift the entire exxe and more..
Those brackets are not that highly loaded compared to the rear lower A arms.

Common "racer" car practice is to remove all the flexi bushings, replace them with aero spec fiber reinforced teflon lined spherical bearings that have been staked to pre-load the spherical bearing.. These are WAY stiffer and WAY more precise than any flexi bushing. Doing this greatly improves locating the control arms as they are loaded by cornering forces and more.. Did this to the LeMons exxe years ago, zero issues to date.


Bernice

 

[Steve Thomas]

"Rip the mount out of the car/chassis."... Don't think so, those inner brackets are strong enough to lift the entire exxe and more..
Those brackets are not that highly loaded compared to the rear lower A arms.

Common "racer" car practice is to remove all the flexi bushings, replace them with aero spec fiber reinforced teflon lined spherical bearings that have been staked to pre-load the spherical bearing.. These are WAY stiffer and WAY more precise than any flexi bushing. Doing this greatly improves locating the control arms as they are loaded by cornering forces and more.. Did this to the LeMons exxe years ago, zero issues to date.


Bernice

Rod ends. Yep, perfect as they allow rotation around multiple axes and so will not bind [if installed with adequate clearance]. The issue with overly stiff "poly" bushes is that they will fight each other as the pins through each bush do not align - by design. With OEM rubber which flexs and distorts [never rotates] this misalignment allows tailored stiffness depending on load condition and travel. In an extreme example, consider what happens if you were to replace those OEM bushes with a solid steel item. The suspension would bind solid with travel only possible by deflection/distortion of mounts. Yes, the mounts are strong, but if the bushes are too stiff, local bending will occur and that will result in fatigue and they will come off the car.

 

[Rupunzell]

Rod ends. Yep, perfect as they allow rotation around multiple axes and so will not bind [if installed with adequate clearance]. The issue with overly stiff "poly" bushes is that they will fight each other as the pins through each bush do not align - by design. With OEM rubber which flexs and distorts [never rotates] this misalignment allows tailored stiffness depending on load condition and travel. In an extreme example, consider what happens if you were to replace those OEM bushes with a solid steel item. The suspension would bind solid with travel only possible by deflection/distortion of mounts. Yes, the mounts are strong, but if the bushes are too stiff, local bending will occur and that will result in fatigue and they will come off the car.

Flexi suspension bushings came into vast production due to cost and being good enough.. They are a solution to a problem that was economically and technically ok enough.. Before flexi bushings, suspension joints were bearings that needed to be greased. There was a time when the chassis "lube job" was part of moto maintenance. ala VW bug/Porsche 356 and many others had "bearings" in their suspension piviots.. trailing arm suspension... Be extremely grateful/thankful the exxe has none of this..

As for real bearings impacting ride quality, not really. The best bump controlled, smooth ride chassis-suspension made was in the Citroen ID/DS hydro-gas suspension, all the moving suspension bits run on tapered roller bearings.. no flexi bits in the suspension bits, yet produced the best comfort ride of anything made.

Bending forces are often not appreciated. While those suspension brackets are very robust, the lever action from suspension arms is often not appreciated (analysis proves this). If those bushings are plenty hard-stiff, they will subject the suspension brackets to surprisingly large forces due to non or limited flexi bushings.. Failure of the suspension brackets is usually not a single over loading event, failure is often due to cyclic loading beyond the designed in limits.. and these failures are often sudden and unexpected.. with not so fun or pretty results..

As for spherical bearings, the common industrial/commercial look like this. They are all metal, often have a lube hole in the housing with a groove to allow for grease to be pressured in. The housing is not staked or pre-loaded allowing the ball to have slop/play with limited precision/accuracy. These are not ideal or should be used in suspension pivots as they flop around WAY too much..

This is a MS spec, or aero spec spherical bearing. Design and build is nothing like the industrial/commercial common variety. The housing has a fiber reinforced PTFE or similar self lubricating liner and the housing has been staked to pre-load the ball producing limited play/slop between the ball to housing. This results in good precision/accuracy of the bearing. These are the style of spherical bearings that must be used for suspension pivots when converting from flexi to significantly better.. Minebea was NMB...

Bernice

 

[Dr.Jeff]

There was another discussion about the yellow urethane bushings in a prior thread. Basically the same failed outcome was found by a hand full of members then as well.

I have found numerous failed parts from the same supplier of those yellow urethane bushings. Back when I owned a wholesale performance parts business I discovered it isn't unusual for certain parts sellers (including many well known ones) to buy the lowest cost products they could find, falsely market them as high quality and resell them at a profit margin of ten fold. If they tend to do this with many of their offerings, then you should assume ALL of their merchandise is the same and avoid those sellers.

 

[Steve Thomas]

Citroen

Have owned several of the last to have proper suspension [C5]. Always wanted a DS but they are very, very rare here. I have seen a grand total of one in the flesh in my life so far.

 

[Ulix]

I had missed this problem with the poly bushings until now.
I had noticed that many reproduced rubber parts are garbage that is too soft and wears out fast (not necessarily on X1/9 parts) and had hoped that poly bishings would be a great replacement. I guess polyurethane can be made just as crappy.
Also, they may not be suitable in every application.

I have blue Superpro bushings in the rear control arms and steering rack mount. I believe I have them for the front control arms as well, but probably won't install them after reading this thread.

 

[Rupunzell]

There was another discussion about the yellow urethane bushings in a prior thread. Basically the same failed outcome was found by a hand full of members then as well.

I have found numerous failed parts from the same supplier of those yellow urethane bushings. Back when I owned a wholesale performance parts business I discovered it isn't unusual for certain parts sellers (including many well known ones) to buy the lowest cost products they could find, falsely market them as high quality and resell them at a profit margin of ten fold. If they tend to do this with many of their offerings, then you should assume ALL of their merchandise is the same and avoid those sellers.

Reality of SO many "performance" aftermarket parts. Majority of them are Poooo designed, made to the lowest possible cost and standards.
Much of these "performance" parts is much about marketing and want to believe, little if anything about actual proper design, proper engineering and highest quality materials and production.

Or, why there is always extreme skepticism towards any moto "performance" parts..

Buyer Be Aware, truly applies here,
Bernice

 

[Rupunzell]

I had missed this problem with the poly bushings until now.
I had noticed that many reproduced rubber parts are garbage that is too soft and wears out fast (not necessarily on X1/9 parts) and had hoped that poly bishings would be a great replacement. I guess polyurethane can be made just as crappy.
Also, they may not be suitable in every application.

I have blue Superpro bushings in the rear control arms and steering rack mount. I believe I have them for the front control arms as well, but probably won't install them after reading this thread.

Polyurethane comes in a large variety of types. What is almost never mentioned is the specific type and durometer of the Polyurethane used in their parts.. Polyurethane is hydroscopic (water-loving) and sensitive to UV depending on the specific blend/type. The specifics of the Polyurethane must be decided based on application and types available. Anything less will produce a long list of problems.

Repo parts to day are also Poooo, typically made of the lowest cost materials and production methods possible then sold at the highest cost the market will accept. This is one of the realities of why new is not always properly functional, followed by blaming the moto brand for being "junk"...

Consider solid aluminum blocks for mounting the steering rack. The machine work is not too difficult.

The steering rack does need a flat to locate the rack. Otherwise, works excellent and no future issues with slow death of flexi bits.

Bernice

 

[Dr.Jeff]

I had missed this problem with the poly bushings until now.
I had noticed that many reproduced rubber parts are garbage that is too soft and wears out fast (not necessarily on X1/9 parts) and had hoped that poly bishings would be a great replacement. I guess polyurethane can be made just as crappy.
Also, they may not be suitable in every application.

I have blue Superpro bushings in the rear control arms and steering rack mount. I believe I have them for the front control arms as well, but probably won't install them after reading this thread.

The poly items from a well respected maker like Superpro may be much better quality than the unknown source items being discussed here (the yellow ones). Not all urethane products are bad. There's a very wide range of duros available in poly (which will make a huge difference in the outcome), and like everything there's also a wide range of quality of urethanes. If you already have the Superpro front bushings then my suggestion is to install them and see how they hold up over time. I'm willing to bet they are MUCH better than the yellow ones from one seller.

 

[Bobkat]

It will be interesting to se how my printed bushings held up from last season. I only did the fronts but really beat on the car. It will go on the hoist in the next few weeks. I know I have to replace the yellow rears that are still on the car but they seem to hold up better in rear.