lookforjoe
True Classic
What was wrong with brackets? I still haven't installed mine, and it's gonna be awhile. Please enlighten us on what to look for.
Anyone Bought The Prima Big Brakes From Vics?
- Thread starter lookforjoe
- Start date
lookforjoe
True Classic
I've emailed / pm'd Aaron for clarification on what to do about the kit. I don't want to go back & forth with parts that don't work/fit as intended.
aaron at VAS
Covered in X1/9 Grime
This kit was developed on my own personal '84, and installed on an '80 and '81 here in our own shop, with zero problems. We've got over a dozen of these kits for X out there currently (including a couple on four-speeds), and have not had any other calls back about an issue. So, you tell me why it's different on Vinny's car! :eyepop:
I cannot overemphasize the importance of reading the instructions. I did foresee the possible need for additional fitting when I wrote the directions, which is why the fix is already detailed there, with pictures. The whole process of grinding down the bosses on the back of the caliper, or on our stainless bracket (to increase clearance between the caliper carrier and the back of the rotor), shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to achieve the fitment that you want. I do welcome questions on the phone or email about this kind of thing beforehand, and I even volunteered to remove some material for Vinny's mechanic. I would be happy to do so again, matter of fact, to help Vinny get the kit on under these unknown circumstances.
Vinny, last time I spoke to your mechanic, I made certain that I gave him directions on how to fix the problem, if it turned out that the 1/16" that I took off the bosses was not enough. It took me, quite literally, 5 minutes to do my part. If he doesn't want to do it himself, I'm perfectly willing do it again, no problem.
Thanks!
I cannot overemphasize the importance of reading the instructions. I did foresee the possible need for additional fitting when I wrote the directions, which is why the fix is already detailed there, with pictures. The whole process of grinding down the bosses on the back of the caliper, or on our stainless bracket (to increase clearance between the caliper carrier and the back of the rotor), shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to achieve the fitment that you want. I do welcome questions on the phone or email about this kind of thing beforehand, and I even volunteered to remove some material for Vinny's mechanic. I would be happy to do so again, matter of fact, to help Vinny get the kit on under these unknown circumstances.
Vinny, last time I spoke to your mechanic, I made certain that I gave him directions on how to fix the problem, if it turned out that the 1/16" that I took off the bosses was not enough. It took me, quite literally, 5 minutes to do my part. If he doesn't want to do it himself, I'm perfectly willing do it again, no problem.
Thanks!
lookforjoe
True Classic
Sent you an email.....
I installed the brakes today.
With the caliper removed from the bracket, it is obvious that there is a lack of clearance on the inside of the bracket. Both brackets and the adaptor plate boss had to be ground to gain reasonable clearance. I had no rust on the spindles that would cause a deviation in offset.
red arrows indicate where carrier contacts the rotor
yellow arrows indicate surface that has to be filed 1/16" or so for clearance
Yellow arrows indicate reasonable clearance on both sides.
given how tight a fit they are, this is something that I feel should be ground down prior to sale in the kit, since it is not even close to centrally offset as supplied. You have to be careful if hand filing the slider bracket to ensure that you don't file it unevenly & cock the caliper.
There is also a spacer that has to be installed behind the rotor hat to push the rotor outward - this means that the wheel studs or bolts you are currently using may not be of sufficient length anymore, mine are not. This is another item that would be worth mentioning on the website to preclude issues after the fact. NOTE: I am not using OEM wheels - The offset is a problem with my American Racing wheels due to the increased hub depth.
Very happy with the installed product, I just feel that minor adjustments and additional info on the installation would greatly improve the experience.
I installed the brakes today.
With the caliper removed from the bracket, it is obvious that there is a lack of clearance on the inside of the bracket. Both brackets and the adaptor plate boss had to be ground to gain reasonable clearance. I had no rust on the spindles that would cause a deviation in offset.
red arrows indicate where carrier contacts the rotor
yellow arrows indicate surface that has to be filed 1/16" or so for clearance
Yellow arrows indicate reasonable clearance on both sides.
given how tight a fit they are, this is something that I feel should be ground down prior to sale in the kit, since it is not even close to centrally offset as supplied. You have to be careful if hand filing the slider bracket to ensure that you don't file it unevenly & cock the caliper.
There is also a spacer that has to be installed behind the rotor hat to push the rotor outward - this means that the wheel studs or bolts you are currently using may not be of sufficient length anymore, mine are not. This is another item that would be worth mentioning on the website to preclude issues after the fact. NOTE: I am not using OEM wheels - The offset is a problem with my American Racing wheels due to the increased hub depth.
Very happy with the installed product, I just feel that minor adjustments and additional info on the installation would greatly improve the experience.
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rturchan
Baja Bob
annotate and illustrate please
I am sure the interference problems are obvious to you (the installer) but if you could "note" the photos, perhaps with MS paint it would be quite illustrative for the rest of us. After a pretty long look at the photos I was unable to ascertain the exact issue and I too am interested in this brake option myself.
Thanks.
Bob
I am sure the interference problems are obvious to you (the installer) but if you could "note" the photos, perhaps with MS paint it would be quite illustrative for the rest of us. After a pretty long look at the photos I was unable to ascertain the exact issue and I too am interested in this brake option myself.
Thanks.
Bob
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lookforjoe
True Classic
Sorry - I'll edit them in Photoshop later today
kmead
Old enough to know better
So does it really need the spacer between the carrier bracket and the mounting bracket? Without that (or reducing the thickness of it) would you still need the spacer between the disc and the hub?
Nice calipers, so these are Bosch calipers versus the TRW units Fiat currently uses on the 500?
I have wondered about using the 500 rear calipers or VW aluminum rear calipers as they have much better emergency brakes than the Fiat OE ones on our old cars. I had a roll away one time with my X due to the crap Ebrake (yes the transmission should have been in gear... :wall: )
Thanks for the info.
Nice calipers, so these are Bosch calipers versus the TRW units Fiat currently uses on the 500?
I have wondered about using the 500 rear calipers or VW aluminum rear calipers as they have much better emergency brakes than the Fiat OE ones on our old cars. I had a roll away one time with my X due to the crap Ebrake (yes the transmission should have been in gear... :wall: )
Thanks for the info.
lookforjoe
True Classic
There is no spacer between the carrier & mounting bracket. The mounting bracket is simply to adjust for the change in caliper mounting point dimensions, and larger OD rotor, it doesn't change the offset of the caliper. If the spacer under the rotor top hat was 1/16" or so thicker, it would push the rotor outward, which would also clearance the carrier.
No clue regarding brand of caliper provided.
Serpent Auto carries 12x1.25x2.5" wheel studs, so I bought a set of 8 from him today. That will cure my wheel mounting concerns.
kmead
Old enough to know better
This thing
Sorry I should have included a graphic.
This looks like a spacer on the intermediate bracket to go from the steering upright to the caliper carrier bracket. If this was not as thick would the caliper carrier still clear the upright?
Assuming this could be thinner then the spacer behind the rotor could be omitted and one hopefully wouldn't need to grind the caliper carrier.
Thanks.
Sorry I should have included a graphic.
This looks like a spacer on the intermediate bracket to go from the steering upright to the caliper carrier bracket. If this was not as thick would the caliper carrier still clear the upright?
Assuming this could be thinner then the spacer behind the rotor could be omitted and one hopefully wouldn't need to grind the caliper carrier.
Thanks.
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
I don't think that would work...
If you just made that spacer/standoff thinner on the bottom end of the caliper bracket and did nothing with the top, you would be cocking the caliper into a non-parallel position with the rotor.
There is not enough meat to make the top mounting point any thinner, so the problem cannot be addressed this way.
A slightly thicker plate under the hat would be a good fix, although that may bring problems of it's own with lug bolt length.
I know of at least 3 of these installations (one of them mine) that required minor grinding to get it to fit. The grinding is not a big deal. Having said that though, it would be nice if Vicks took this on before the kit went out the door so it would be a true bolt-on.
Pete
If you just made that spacer/standoff thinner on the bottom end of the caliper bracket and did nothing with the top, you would be cocking the caliper into a non-parallel position with the rotor.
There is not enough meat to make the top mounting point any thinner, so the problem cannot be addressed this way.
A slightly thicker plate under the hat would be a good fix, although that may bring problems of it's own with lug bolt length.
I know of at least 3 of these installations (one of them mine) that required minor grinding to get it to fit. The grinding is not a big deal. Having said that though, it would be nice if Vicks took this on before the kit went out the door so it would be a true bolt-on.
Pete
lookforjoe
True Classic
That boss is part of the mounting bracket - it is designed to sit on the same plane as the upper mounting ear on the spindle (which is too dark to see in the pic, however you can see the new mounting bolt passing through it). I did file that slightly as well. The problem is the uniform lack of clearance top and bottom as indicated in my earlier pic. making just the boss thinner will 'cock' the caliper bracket and the caliper.
Yellow - clearance ; Red - no clearance
lookforjoe
True Classic
An easy way to deal with this would be to grind the carrier as I did, flush with the main body of the carrier, and provide high grade spacer washers of a few thousandths thickness (CIEKA provides them with their brake kits, which is why I know of them), so that you could space the carrier outward if necessary - that would obviate the need for any grinding by the purchaser.
The main reason I don't feel this should be done by hand is that uneven filing/grinding will change the orientation of the carrier & caliper relative to the rotor.
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
Could this be one of those situations where if you swapped the adapter brackets and/or the caliper carrier from L to R it might work?
lookforjoe
True Classic
No. The boss placement is the only difference, so swapping them would remove the replacement "spindle" ear that the boss provides.
aaron at VAS
Covered in X1/9 Grime
Since it hasn't been translated here, let me share some of what I shared with Hussein the other day.
What you guys need to know is that I already had a fix for this issue in the works before Hussein posted here. As Pete said, there have been about four installs so far that have required minor grinding on the caliper bracket to achieve fitment, out of roughly twenty. I have listened to even the small contingent of folks who are having problems, and a solution is already forthcoming.
Basically, we are making the rotor spacer 2mm thicker, which should solve almost all of the issues with variance that we are seeing. I do want to point out that I personally tested this kit on two separate X1/9s during the development process, and neither required grinding, so I felt I had done due diligence. Honestly, the OE spindle assembly is not an area where I expected to see a significant level of variation, but that is what is going on.
In regard to the lug fitment, Hussein was running mag-style lugs WITHOUT the OE wheel spacers, prior to installing the kit. That was the source of his offset change, not the Prima kit, and we have already discussed this at length. More esteemed members of the community than myself have already noted variability in the thickness of the stock wheel spacers between 4mm and 6mm, so our new 6mm spacers should not affect anyone's lug fitment beyond the factory's own tolerance.
The new spacers will be aluminum, and should put everybody well within the happiness zone. Thanks for the helpful feedback.
What you guys need to know is that I already had a fix for this issue in the works before Hussein posted here. As Pete said, there have been about four installs so far that have required minor grinding on the caliper bracket to achieve fitment, out of roughly twenty. I have listened to even the small contingent of folks who are having problems, and a solution is already forthcoming.
Basically, we are making the rotor spacer 2mm thicker, which should solve almost all of the issues with variance that we are seeing. I do want to point out that I personally tested this kit on two separate X1/9s during the development process, and neither required grinding, so I felt I had done due diligence. Honestly, the OE spindle assembly is not an area where I expected to see a significant level of variation, but that is what is going on.
In regard to the lug fitment, Hussein was running mag-style lugs WITHOUT the OE wheel spacers, prior to installing the kit. That was the source of his offset change, not the Prima kit, and we have already discussed this at length. More esteemed members of the community than myself have already noted variability in the thickness of the stock wheel spacers between 4mm and 6mm, so our new 6mm spacers should not affect anyone's lug fitment beyond the factory's own tolerance.
The new spacers will be aluminum, and should put everybody well within the happiness zone. Thanks for the helpful feedback.
Pete Whitstone
True Classic
Thanks Aaron
I had to wonder if the issue could be coming from various wheel bearing press depths. I don't even know if that's possible, but it seems like it could factor in.
Anyhow, minor fitment issues aside, I have to say I am more than satisfied with the brakes. No fade, and the EBC green pads are quiet (after the initial break-in). Count me as a happy customer.
Pete
I had to wonder if the issue could be coming from various wheel bearing press depths. I don't even know if that's possible, but it seems like it could factor in.
Anyhow, minor fitment issues aside, I have to say I am more than satisfied with the brakes. No fade, and the EBC green pads are quiet (after the initial break-in). Count me as a happy customer.
Pete
lookforjoe
True Classic
I had edited my install post to reflect the issue with my aftermarket wheels after our email conversation 
Having driven the car everyday since, I am also very happy with the improved braking this upgrade provides.
The new larger rotors have highlighted an issue I didn't know I had - the left wheel bearing has some play :sad: - so I need to rectify that promptly...
Having driven the car everyday since, I am also very happy with the improved braking this upgrade provides.
The new larger rotors have highlighted an issue I didn't know I had - the left wheel bearing has some play :sad: - so I need to rectify that promptly...
Dan Sarandrea (Phila)
Waitin' On Parts...
Any progress to report on development of the equivalent kit for the rears?